Mariah posted this blog. [MUSIC]
You need to read it first before continuing to understand where I'm coming from. I started to comment on her blog, but in true Long-Winded fashion, it became far more than just a comment... so I decided to blog it here instead.
My Opinion/ Pet Peeve
Don’t get me wrong – I love good music, but I just don’t follow this stuff. I’ll buy you can like the music, but as far as I’m concerned these words don’t mean anything. They sound pretty followed after one-another. They are descriptive and creative... but the lyrics just seem to be trying too hard.
I must simply be a cynic. Maybe I’m too rigid, close-minded, or uncreative. Whatever the case, I simply can’t get past lyrics that seem to me to be thrown together because they “sound” deep, yet contain no meaning.
For me, it’s like “Christian-ese speak”… it sounds sincere, but it’s just really words that aren’t followed by any real heart or meaning.
Or, another perfect example…. There’s that one song that goes:
“If I could fall into the sky,
Do you think time would pass me by,
cause you know I’d walk a thousand miles
if I could just see you.”
What does that MEAN???! It is an incoherent jumble of thoughts that “sound” good, but don’t make sense.
Anyway, I only bring this up because Mariah posted those lyrics, and I’m really searching to understand them - but I am falling short.
I believe that art contains no boundries. However, the English language by itself is not art. It's simply a tool to compose art. The words, as a toolset, have meaning, and together can craft pictures, spurn emotion, cause movement, or create rhythm and use cadence (another tool). However, the TOOL must be used properly, and at its very core, words are meant to convey meaning. Purely, and simply. Without meaning, the tool is being used improperly, and ineffectively.
Like I said, I'm trying hard to understand those lyrics. The meaning of the Words don't always need to be clear and concise, but they must still relate meaning, and I've come to the determination that thes words just don't.
Thus my pet peeve:: People who write lyrics that are trying SO HARD to be "outside-the-box" and creative, that they end up actually writing things that have zero comprehension.
Maybe I'm just a snob. Whatever the case, it's just NOT art!
Follow Up:
After posting this blog topic, I decided to see what others thought of Bon Iver's Flume lyrics, so I "Googled". It suprises me that I'm not the only one to which they don't make sense - almost every "write-up" of his album that talks of the opening track, Flume, mentions the opening line with clarity, and then confess to a lack of understanding on the rest of the lyrics - though while I'm not the only one that doesn't get it, I seem to be the only one that carries critisim for it.
It's seems to me that because he's "indy", has a good back-story for the album creation, and a good sound; he's forgiven for his lousy lyrics, and almost "praised" for it!
Grrrr....
12 comments:
I love it! I love that we are 100% opposite in this area. I actually picked that song for that very reason. The reason that the lyrics mean nothing and a million different things. True art is decided by the viewer and what one may not see the other will. That is the beauty of this and many of his other songs. I could care less if he's trendy and actually had no idea that he was so popular until i was at his show. I just started listening to his music. I DON'T alway want someone to have to spell it out what they want me to think or feel from there song. I'm surprised that you are so frustrated by this song because you are a poet and know that poetry doesn't always make "sense." I love that you google it and found that others are frustrated with the lyrics..Hahaha. you can all be angry at him together!
My take on the song what I think it means (and probably why i like the song so much) I think of a son a child and someone that sees life in everything (moon, love, a flume, water) it all just makes me think. What are you listening to right now that you're liking?
Actually, when I googled it, I was surprised that though no one else "gets" the lyrics, I seem to be the only one that takes issue with this.
I don't need people to "spell it out" when they create art... but it's one thing to be metaphorically challenging - it's quite another to be completely nonsensical. In otherwords, I don't believe the words actually have meaning in Flume. It literally (and even figuratively) makes zero sense.
Art allows you to define things on your own terms, but the point is, you're still defining something. In music, the words themselves are not the art, they are the tool. They create the imagery, describe the emotions, and/or produce the story. They can do this because words, at their core, are designed to relate meaning. They can do this with methaphors, imagery, or some other literary tool, but regardless of their form, in the end they still relate meaning.
Words are a "tool" for the art, much like the paint brush is the tool, not the final product.
I personally feel he failed his audience because he misused the tool. His words simply don't make sense on any level... they just SOUND pretty, and that's the crime.
For example:
"African embers of listless chorus,
beat with the cadence of the harpy forest .
Pearls of purple-hued abrasion
still fail to utter of their wicked sensation.
And all the while I lonely stand,
with fist in cheek and tongue in hand."
See what I mean?
(FYI: this isn't a criticism of those who enjoy his music. This is a criticism of him. People may not care about the words, or may latch on to a verse or chorus and be content with it. That's allow and good and I don't think anything of it. I'm just relating why I can't listen to him without getting slightly "irked".)
==============================
As for your question, I'm currently a HUGE fan on Pandora, because it's been introducing me to so many new (or just new to me) chrisitan artists. I've found many I'm enjoying, but I still have a special place for "No Not One" by Brandon Heath. (You can listen to it on the right of this blog using my music player) For me, it's a worship song from my heart... which is funny to say considering my late diatribes regarding how our current society focuses so much on Christ's Love, and ignores the rest of who God is. I'm still looking to understand God in all His completeness and forms, but obviously not at the cost of forgetting one of my favorite qualities, His Love. So yeah, in spite of my current "mission", I still have latched onto this song.
is the song you mentioned on the radio or something??? i feel like i recently heard it and, too, was irked that i couldn't make sense of it. lyrics are extremely important to me, as i don't like to listen to music that causes my heart to dwell on things that aren't true or beautiful, or praiseworthy, or pure (according to phil. 4:8)...and when a song is undecipherable in this way, i just as soon replace it with something that IS.
Bon Iver is on the radio, though given that I rarely listen to secular radio that's not a "talk show", I'm not sure if the song Flume is played.
Did you click the link to Mariah's blog? You can listen to Bon Iver sing "Flume" live.
Your point following (Phil. 4:8) is a good one, and not an angle I considered using to support my argument, but it is a good point... especially regarding the reasons for "caring about the lyric meaning".
I like things to be extrememly obvious for me in music. Lyrics and art should have some purpose and idea to convey and not be such a parade of random words and phrases that don't make any sense at all. I have not heard of this Bon Iver and don't remeber hearing any of his music. I'm not trying to make fun of him either, but maybe he's A.D.D. or something. It could be in his reality and thought process that what he puts together in his music makes perfect sense. It could also be that he is lazy and doesn't want to put to much effort into his song writing. I'm interested to know his point of view.
I think that you are looking at it in such a different way than I am. How can you say the words mean nothing? Maybe nothing to you but to him they may have a ton of "meaning."
I'm going to have to pull the JC card here...Jesus constantly told stories that people didn't understand. Even trying to explain his death to the disciples was a mystery to them. So because Jesus' words didn't mean anything to the disciples they DEFINITELY mean everything to Jesus. I'm not in anyway comparing Jesus to Justin from Bon Iver.
Love ya dave but don't agree. Art is whatever it wants to be.
"as far as I’m concerned these words don’t mean anything."
Fair enough.
"Whatever the case, it's just NOT art!"
That I can't agree with you on. Had you qualified the second statement like you did the first with a "as far as I'm concerned it's just not art!" then I would be fine with that, but to pass a value judgment on a song because you don't find meaning in it personally is not entirely fair.
"The words, as a toolset, have meaning, and together can craft pictures, spurn emotion, cause movement, or create rhythm and use cadence (another tool)."
So the words from the song don't craft pictures or spur emotion for you (I assume) but I can guarantee they do for other people. I am assuming Mariah wouldn't have posted them if they hadn't spurred something of meaning within her and I am sure for the artist they are of deep meaning as well.
You also seem to be neglecting the context of meaning, and how meaning takes different shapes to different people at different times (especially lyrics). The artist has used a lyrical trick by removing enough of the original context of his personal story to allow the remaining words to fit more easily into the various contexts of the listeners. Therefore the listener becomes a part of the art, imbuing meaning into the song from their own experience.
For example, had the song started by saying "I am my mother's only son" instead of "my mother's only one" their would be a level of disconnect for all of the daughters listening.
Thanks for sharing your opinion on the song. I am not a big fan of Bon Iver but I am glad Mariah got to get a rare night away from Isaac and I am glad she enjoyed it!
first of all Bon Iver isnt on the radio- maybe one indie station that got shut down a bout 6 months ago- but i guarantee youve never heard him on the radio. he is somewhat trendy in the indie crowd-possibly bc he isnt forced to compromise his ART in order to have mass appeal. and i completely disagree with youre saying that words arent art. WHAT?! language was created out in someones mind-- to me that equals art. everything that we have is art- it was created by man who was given the ability to do so by God. everything is ART.
and i couldnt agree more with Mariah- that just because the words mean nothing to you doesnt mean that they dont have profound meaning to him- and he is simply expressing himself.
there are no boundaries in art or expressing oneself- you dont have to identify with it but you cant say its invalid or has no meaning.
there are diff types of art- some is literal- and some is abstract. for me the fun and amazing thing about art is searching my heart- stirring up things i didnt know where lurking in my mind and heart. seeing life through someone else eyes or words. i understand your frustration with wanting a more clear meaning to a song- but i encourage you to let go and just experience it and see what happens. i think this is a classic case of the mind getting in the way of the heart.
i love you david and i appreciate you thoughts on this but i honestly am so surprised.
I'm still in complete disagreement that you can simply write any string of words and it can mean "anything". The example that Jesus used parables is in no way the same thing. What Jesus said couldn't be taken at face value but it didn't mean that it didn't make sense... it just wasn't always "contextual", and thuis its meaning was lost.
Like i said, maybe I just don't get the lyrics, but I therefore will leave you the challenge... if they meant something to you, explain it to me. Simply thinking good thoughts why you hear the words moon, and womb and mother isn't enough. For the words to "have meaning", as opposed to "make you think about something else", they must be able to be interpreted. I contend that his lyrics "have no meaning". While they don't have to make everyone think the same things, they SHOULD be able to be picked apart.
If you like them, I'm fine with that... but explain it to me and back it up with the LYRICS he wrote, not simply your own thoughts and feelings on fine words.
Seriously, I don't think ANYONE can read those lyrics, and create any sort of coherent line of thinking. If you can, then I applaud you, and ask you to walk through it with me.
I don't feel the need to qualify my opinion with a "qualifying line" after every sentence, hence the subject header: "My Opinion / Pet peeve". I assumed that everything following that header was understood to be my opinion.
If people like his work, great. If it reminds them of purple flowers or moon godesses or video game quests, awesome. But a "tangent thought" is not the same as a "story told". Furthermore, my pet peeve is made all the more aggitated that the "critics" are praising his work when his work (which is comprised of the lyrics as well as the music) isn't well done. I'm not saying it doesn't have appeal, but it isn't well done.
I'll give it a chance. I like the "sound". And I still am open to allowing someone to interpret it for me... but is SHOULD be able to be interpreted (even if it is interpreted as something other than his intent), and the interpretation should be backed by the lyrics, not by the topics it makes you think about.
Jesus' parables may have been misinterpreted, but that's because He used a literary tool to tell His story, and they missed it. What is Bon Iver's literary tool?
And Candie, language was created by a group of individuals, AS a means to relate meaning to one another... but not just "any meaning" or else language wouldn't be useful... it was created to have the words relate the SAME meaning to all individuals.
"Pickled corpses n burning chairs
smell the angry locust flares.
With falling shadows livid with fear
and the bulbous tones of a bullish steer
Replicating at a wicked pace
the steel magnolias fallen from grace.
while nomads comb to and fro
to find the message in the snow."
"language was created by a group of individuals, AS a means to relate meaning to one another... but not just "any meaning" or else language wouldn't be useful..."
I suggest this is too limited an understanding of "language" and too limited an understanding of "meaning." Language does a lot more than convey meaning, and language is not the only ingredient in art that conveys meaning.
Notice that Webster has "the logical connotation of a word or phrase" as the fourth of four definitions for the word "Meaning." The word can also be used to describe a things "significant quality." The significant quality of a piece of lyrical art is a subjective assessment* and the value of the significance is assigned in much the same way one attributes value to a family heirloom or memento. The value of such an item is not a universal value held by all but is determined through individual significance.
"it was created to have the words relate the SAME meaning to all individuals."
This cannot be said of nearly 99% of musical lyrics I am aware of.
Tim
*This is not to say that one cannot make objective statements about music. I would imagine Music Criticism is a recognized and valid course of study on nearly every major college campus in the US. Music critique can address the skill and craft of the musician and the aesthetics of the music but also must always take into consideration the impact on the listener and the contributions that the audience brings to the piece.
Tim,
well said, though I think you've missed what I'm trying to relate.
That said I need to touch on something else here really quickly.
I meant to delete and rewrite my last topic comment because it sounded "angry" when read, but it should be noted that I'm not angry. I should be understood that this is all just my opinion on this particular topic. I take no issue with anyone that enjoys Bon Iver... minus the "Music Critics" that praise his work. On a personal level, anyone can enjoy him for any reason, and not only are they entitled to it - I feel no distaste or emotion at all toward their enjoyment of his work. I DO however, dislike those that are paid to criticize and praise a work that is not well put together... and thus my intent is to express why I believe his work is not well made, and thus justified in my annoyance.
So I digress.
Here's the sum of my point, and I'm afraid I can't make it any more clear because I'm starting to run out of ways to express it.
Suppose I say to a group of you, "The chartuse assumption of barley fjords".
Some of you may picture boats passing through surrounding cliffs. Some of you may picture a golden field of barley on the edge of a precipous. Some of you may picture the color green, and some of you may even think: "green and assumption... hmm, ok, maybe he means, Envy?"
The point is, I can use individual words, or maybe a sparse 2 or 3 that you can interpret any way you desire because the individual word makes you think of "something". Of course, that's simply the nature of words. I say "purple" your mind will think of something.
However, take any literary tool you can come up with, and the phrase as a whole still is meaningless. See, if you put it in the form of a phrase, or a paragraph, it doesn't make sense. Not as a metaphor. Not as a simile. It just carries no meaning.
No, It's not "thoughtless"... but it's "meaningless". You might think things when you read it (you most likely WILL think things), because your mind works that way... word association in order to attempt to form meaning... but individual words standing alone (or even in random pairs) only mean what they mean as individuals. They don't work together simply because they ARE together.
In the case of lyrics, specifically THESE lyrics, they are delivered in phrase or prose form... thus the intent is to relate a bigger picture... TOGETHER.
But these words don't...
... Or as I conceded, maybe I just don't get it. But if I don't get it, and someone else does (even if their interpretation differs from the original author), they should be able to walk me through it. Simply taking 20% of the total lyrics to form your hypothesis doesn't jive... at least in my book. 80%, I'll give... but 2-3 lines and ignoring the rest of the content is not "support".
So I leave it at others hands to walk me through understanding the song, at least from their perspective. Read me the lines, what they mean to you and how it fits with the "big picture". Do that, and I'll concede to Bon Iver's talent. Really. Honestly, I like his "musicality"... a lot. I'm simply stuck on this annoyance. So really, I won't be stubborn about it, but I think it's fair to expect an answer with support.
Thus, my annoyance with the "critics". I actually looked, and I have yet to find anyone who can explain the lyrics and how the words relate to one another to form a meaning.
David,
You are assuming the songwriter behind Bon Iver (I believe his name is Justin) intends to convey explicit meaning in his lyrics and has failed to do so with a string of random phrases.
I don't interpret the song in that way at all. I assume he intends to convey implicit meaning through outlining a rough structure of a story and allowing the audience to find myriad points of connection.
Personally I think the lyrics as read from a website border on gobbledigook as well but I have yet to listen to the song with musical accompaniment or hear the song within the context of the entire album (another essential element to understanding lyrical context). If I ever get around to listening to it I will make an attempt at "walking you through it."
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